By: da fa

[Recommend this Fotopage] | [Share this Fotopage]
View complete fotopage

Sunday, 17-Feb-2013 14:58 Email | Share | Bookmark
spanish politics- a setback on the path to what seems the promis

Related articles:

Spanish money: A drawback on the path to precisely what seems this promised territory | The Economist
Marketplace politicsUnited StatesBritainEuropeChinaAsiaAmericasMiddle East & AfricaBusiness & financeAll Enterprise & financeWhich MBA?Business enterprise Books QuarterlyEconomicsAll EconomicsEconomics simply by invitationEconomics A-ZMarkets & dataScience & technologyAll Science & technologyTechnology QuarterlyCultureAll CultureMore Sensible LifeStyle guideThe Economist QuizBook reviewsBlogsLatest weblog postsFeast and famineAnalectsFree exchangeAmericas viewGame theoryBabbageGraphic detailBanyanGulliverBaobabJohnsonBlightyLexington's notebookButtonwood's notebookNewsbookCassandraPomegranateCharlemagneProsperoDemocracy on AmericaSchumpeterEastern approachesDebateEconomist debatesWhat the world thinksEconomics by invitationLetters to the editorIdeas niche: Women & workThe Society in 2013MultimediaWorldBusiness & economicsScience & technologyCultureEventsThe Economist on audioPrint editionCurrent issuePrevious issuesSpecial reportsPolitics this weekBusiness this weekLeadersKAL's cartoonObituary We usage cookies to guide features enjoy login and also trusted marketing partners that will analyse aggregated web page usage. Keep party crackers enabled to enjoy the full web site experience. By simply browsing our website with toast enabled, you might be agreeing with their use. Review much of our cookies material for more details.Most of us use party crackers to support options like get access and allow creditworthy media partners to study aggregated site practice. Keep cookies empowered to enjoy the complete site expertise. By surfing around our site with cookies capable, you are saying yes to their usage. Review our toast information for more information.We employ cookies to assist features such as login and invite trusted media partners to assist you to analyse aggregated blog usage. Keep biscuits enabled to have enjoyment from the full web pages experience. As a result of browsing our site with biscuits enabled, you are usually agreeing to their use. Review your cookies material for more details.This fabulous site uses snacks. By enduring to read the site you might be agreeing to our use of treats. Review our own cookies data for more detailsThis web site uses cupcakes. By continuing to explore the site that you're agreeing to our own use of cookies. Review a lot of our cookies specifics for more detailsThis website uses cupcakes. By continuing to investigate the site that you're agreeing to use of cakes. Review each of our cookies tips for more detailsThis online site uses toast. By ongoing to investigate site you happen to be agreeing to use of snacks. Review this cookies tips for more detailsThis website uses cupcakes. By ongoing to look into the site you may be agreeing to the use of cakes. Review much of our cookies data for more details Charlemagne European national politics PreviousNextLatest CharlemagneLatest from all our blogs Spanish governmental policies A setback with respect to what would seem the stated land Nov 26th Next year, 16:5 by W.T. | The town Tweet SO ARTUR MAS (pictured over), the Catalan nationalist lead designer, was no Moses all things considered. His attempt at leading your partner's people to your promised stretch of land of a brand-new nation express floundered at state elections yesterday which saw his or her Convergence plus Union (CiU) coalition get rid of excess a 6th of their recliners.The selection result wasn’t some thumping victory meant for anti-separatists and for the centralising united states government of Mariano Rajoy as well. The outright separatists of the Republican Catalan Positioned (ERC) took CiU's dropped seats to turn into the second push in the 135-seat parliament, having 21 deputies. With a clear largest percentage in parliament nowadays wants Catalonia to get a formal to certainly self-determination.With primarily fifty bicycle seats Mr Mas have got to still govern. To do that when called he'll either lean on ERC – who will egg him on in his confrontation with The city – or for anti-separatists in the Catalan companies of the Socialist Get together or at Mr Rajoy's A persons Party (PP). A Socialists and PP acquired 20 in addition to 19 chair respectively. ERC appears Mr Mas’s almost certainly choice, even though nothing is clean.Mr Mas should tread attentively. The only self evident result of his own failed endeavor to grab benefits of a sudden huge increase in guidance for liberty has been polarisation. During strictly precise terms, what number of seats at the same time held through the broad-church nationalists of CiU and much more determined separatists like ERC remains just as it was. However , on both ends, the hardliners now have gained land. The small, virulently anti-separatist Folks party, for example, tripled its representation to hunting for seats.Typically the fallout in the case of social cohesion in this rich and in general placid north-eastern area of The country is altogether unpredictable. The most important fractures were definitely already growing to be visible in the time of campaigning. And Mr Mas's more medium, if minority, coalition partners through the Catalan Democratic Union (which put the “U” in CiU) will be fuming. Their particular preferred way to the sovereignty problem is a arranged confederation with the rest involving Spain. They just do not like conflict with The town, or concern over Catalonia's near future within the Eu. They hate ERC.So where should the overall flexibility issue alternate from here? Mr Mas had feedback a clear majority to make a huge leap forward while in the long-running march that will ever-greater sovereignty for Catalonia. He / she did not have that.The vote on The fall of 25th creates things messier. All the Catalan parliament will proclaim a right to assist you to self-determination that the Romance language constitution would not allow. It'll likewise pass your law with referenda that Mister Mas will try to implement to telephone a non-binding referendum of some kind. Nonetheless, after CiU's weak showing, a fabulous referendum may not occur for 4 years and the challenge asked could be deliberately wooly. And even expect a hostile reply as a result of Mr Rajoy's government, if it is even now in capability. It could have a referendum declared illegal in advance. Spain's socialists, staggering on this and various issues, plainly add superior uncertainty.Either way, a new work on localized financing is without a doubt badly essential. The main person of Catalan unhappiness – apart from the current economic crisis – was the amount of taxation money handed over to worse parts of the country that are fitted with failed to wear themselves shut off subsidies. When Catalans see reductions to their own health insurance and education companies, they think money could be better spent on on their own.The best get rid of is for The country of spain as a whole to beat recession, bring down its 25% redundancy rate as well as rekindle displaced optimism. But that's still around two years at bay. And, whether or not the economy retrieves, the Catalan concern will not disappear altogether. A new, much younger generation involving Catalans has been shared with independence was initially around the corner. Since their frustrations position, they might end up getting impatient. This might prove perilous. « Italian governmental: Heading leftwardsGreece's unsecured debt: A bail-out from any other designate » Recommend97TweetSubmit to reddit View virtually all comments (235)Incorporate your comment Related itemsTOPIC: Catalonia »Catalonia’s election: Trouble aheadPolitics this approach weekThe Economist: Digital accessories, December Main 2012TOPIC: Spanish politics »Spain as well as Catalonia: Heading for an important break-up?Spain along with Catalonia: The trials of always keeping a country togetherCentrifugal The country of spain: Umbrage in CataloniaTOPIC: Western european politics »Changing Britain’s press: A new nightmare meant for David Cameron Credit regulation: Light touch no moreGerman elections: Political figures in proportionTOPIC: Society politics »Colombia and additionally Nicaragua: Hot watersDaily graph and or chart: Beware serious cliffThe nomenklatura: Vertical joins horizontalMore related ideas:Mariano RajoySpainGovernment and national politics Readers' comments The Economist welcomes your feelings. Please stay on topic and grow respectful about other audience. Review a lot of our comments protection plan. Sort:Most current firstOldest firstReaders' most recommended123next ›last » Ariba Nov Thirtieth 2012 Being unfaithful:02 GMT Little Cultural Direct:Roughly presenting, in Spain there are actually 4 teams of regions, alot more related due to their cultural accounts:- Galicia: people speak Spanish tongue and Galician, a new language incredibly closely connected with Portuguese. Schooling can be attained in both different languages, as well as used in combination with the control. Local Television set are in Galician. Nearly everybody consider ourselves both Spanish and Galician, and local nationalism is very affordable.- Basque Usa + Navarre: they converse Basque and Simple spanish. In some sections Basque has not been been vocal for centuries, in others it is very tough. Education could be received in both languages, and used with a administration. Community TVs are usually in both spoken languages. In most fields there is a robust nationalist feeling (which even lead to terrorist moves, such as ETA).To Catalonia + Valencia + Balearic Islands: individuals speak Catalan and additionally Spanish. Catalan is actually the only tongue in far off areas, while Spanish dominates in cities or streets. Catalan is the mainly language found in education plus the management. Local Tv sets are in Catalan. When it comes to Catalonia there is a well-known nationalist feeling, with Balearic Islands it is smaller, plus in Valencia almost inconsequential.- Castillian Italy: rest of The country, where simply Spanish is definitely spoken. Is only foreign language for all general public services.Throughout Castillian Spain and most other parts, Spain is considered one single nation. A few cases, Catalonia (for instance) may be known as a different place, assuming that Portugal is the break (non-Catalonia territory). At the same time feelings exist together in these areas, in a variety of proportions. This particular produces weird results: a local Spanish lecturer from Catalonia may consider herself only Catalan wow power leveling, taking into consideration a Catalan speaking Valencian to be Real spanish and, therefore, foreigner. Recommend 1ReportPermalinkreply MukMe Nov 30th Next year 1:54 GMT Reading all the observations, for me a single thing is, Catalans and the all Spanish people are strengthening their Speech... once more they simply want to display their variations in a foreing vocabulary... many of them really are civil servants by national and also regional health systems paid to help disseminate their very own propaganda... Recommend 0ReportPermalinkreply Garaboncias Nov 30th Next year 1:Two thousand and seven GMT After the debacle that is absolute to come (somehow), I wonder whether the saner Catalans will likely have a new motto? Something like "no mas Mas"... might be too installing.Mas makes truck salesmen appear like the apotheosis involving probity... Recommend 2ReportPermalinkreply Accrux in reply to Garaboncias Nov Thirtieth 2012 Couple of:34 GMT I indicate either "ni Mas national insurance menos" for the non-followers or..."Todos queremos Mas" for his own followers, (Argentina) (The country) Recommend 2ReportPermalinkreply Garaboncias in reply to Accrux Nov 30th 2012 Five:43 GMT Far too funny... Recommend 2ReportPermalinkreply Michael Dunne Nov 29th Next year 16:43 GMT Two pie index charts showing the particular composition involved with parliament before and after typically the election could have been helpful. Recommend 0ReportPermalinkreply Accrux in answer Michael Dunne Nov Thirtieth 2012 3:42 GMT Voilà, Recommend 0ReportPermalinkreply Pointout Nov Twenty eighth 2012 12:48 GMT Phew!So many people opine that I believe overwhelmed. So I am going to limit the contribution to 3 short, factual statements, for ones benefit of those able to eliminate value from.1 : DecentralisationSpain's regional health systems spend an even better share coming from all public-sector expenses as compared to any othe inside the EU.2 - CentralisationThe PP governing administration has not announced a single item of legislation centralising just about any decision-making process, in the 11 times it has been in power.A variety of - EducationPublic instruction in Catalonia operates by the Catalan government and tutored exclusively found in Catalan language. Every theme is taught and practiced in Catalan, besides Spanish alone, which is tutored as a language you are studying.4 And Use of How to speak spanish languageOver 90% of broadsheets bought Catalonia seem to be printed during Spanish.In excess of 90% of flick tickets picked up in Catalonia tend to be for flicks dubbed towards Spanish. The Catalan governing administration forces motion-theaters to point out minimum allocations of flicks dubbed straight into Catalan, which are looked at uneconomic by theater-owners.Five - TaxesThe Madrid region is normally, by far, number one contributor with regards to taxes vacation, not only business or oblique (VAT), but probably personal (money). Income tax payed in Madrid is about double the amount per face as it is with Catalonia, due to improved number of staff on great salaries, and number of and do not dwellings in excess of tax wage value policies.6 -Fiscal transfersAfter the prevailing EU budget negotiations result, Spain is probably going to become a internet contributor to that EU.Its reasonable it's about that a livlier, independent Catalonia be considered a propronally greater bestower than Spain.Whereas the federal government of Catalonia has got issued any calculation for the deemed variety of transfers to less well off regions inside of Spain (ostensibly 8.5% about GDP), it offers failed to produce an estimate from potential involvement by a completely independent Catalonia to the European budget.Several - TradeNo estimates have been available of the damage on invest Spain on account of independence Recommend 12ReportPermalinkreply romulo in reply to Pointout Nov 29th 2012 Hunting for:55 GMT Good analysis!In point Six I would like to explain that on the latest yr for which comprehensive data is out there Catalonia received found in Govenment spending Five,016 million dollars MORE than has been paid in central coffers with catalan taxpayers.This the Misinform the standard catalan battlecry from the last few years who have consistently said that the Catalans experience 'been robbed' of Sixteen,000 trillion more euros than they already have received.On the subject of point Seven it has been projected by a the latest prestigious commercial think water tank that Catalonia could lose about 50 % of of it's exports to The country and 20% with it's GDP. Recommend 9ReportPermalinkreply romulo Nov 28th Next year 20:3 years ago GMT What is the mother nature of NATIONALISM?For a start, you need an ENEMY. This is the first thing to do. You need to win over the people that every their problems are due to who enemy's vile activities and loathe towards you and never due to your own incompetence plus corruption.You should control the particular PRESS, Stereo and especially Tv set. You populate all content in public transmissions with acolytes and also you subsidise heavily most of non-publicly owned broadsheets and stereos.You need to manipulate the EDUCATION Process. You rewrite the history text books and you change the educating staff while in the public arena with people who have been ideologically vetted and implement rigid regulators on non-public schools. You have over children's groups together with cultural manufacturers by subsidising people that toe the party tier.You need a LIE. It must be effortless say however , very difficult to refute with no lot of tricky explanations. 'Spain sucks us' is a really good instance and replaces the 'Catalonia continues to be oppressed for More than 200 years' that just about nobody emphasizes in any alot more.You need TIME. Thirty years possibly even of saying every day through your controlled Advertising and Education system all the nationalist mantra of which everything unfavorable is due to that hateful policies went after by the Opposing players should be more than enough.Finally, you need to stage a big DEMONSTRATION in an effort to whip up well-liked enthusiasm. You cannot go to war or point out independence without essential phase. You use open TV/Radio to generate the data that is zeal (such as, catalan TV expended 317 hours with August in addition to September to advertise the Eleventh Sept. exhibition. You prepare and subsidise custom motor coaches and model trains to bring in as numerous people as it can be and your formal crowd quotations should be at the very least three times the figure.Will certainly this help you to create a Usa State?Absolutely no, but it actually does allow you to name a snap selection and have almost everyone forget that your particular handling of your economy has been a DISASTER, your region is usually BANKRUPT, a public certification system the worst on the UE27 and that a huge number of your occasion leaders usually are indicted for File corruption error. Recommend 16ReportPermalinkreply Michael James Blair in answer romulo Nov 28th Next year 22:54 GMT There are 2 types of nationalists.1) (Romance language)nationalists like you. These Spanish nationalists make believe you impose your language, its culture and their traditions for other nations (Calatonia, Basque area)2) (Catalan) nationalists want to have the instantly to decide it is future as is also not Spaniards. They may be different. They are not better, but are not rather more serious either.When the UK has done with Scotland, The country should enable the people of Catalonia vote. I am aware of you are a Spaniard, even so you should be democratic. Recommend 4ReportPermalinkreply Logicaldjv in reply to romulo Nov 28th 2012 23:Summer GMT You are correctly about nationalism considering that it of course should not be forgotton to Spain. In terms of work I would continue my teeth shut since there are not many spaces in which The country of spain impresses the world. Most people talk about bankruptcy when France is about to possibly be bailed out. But that are you endeavoring to convince ? Spain is at the bottom of Europe for any socio-economic issues. It has hardly any democratic tradition at all and the active constitution must be negotiated with the fascist military. The sooner the Catalans give Spain better. When this happens you will get the freedom to sort out Spain using a GDP amputated by way of 20% and with 04 billion much less in your coffers. This particular looks guaranteeing indeed. Make sure you be fooling. Recommend 1ReportPermalinkreply Globalizer in reply to Elizabeth James Blair Nov 29th Next year 1:59 GMT You mention..." inflict their terminology, their culture and their heritage to other places (Calatonia, Basque country)..."Where's any proof? Given that Castilian (Spanish) is definitely the national foreign language does not mean to be being charged. Since Franco's loss of life, the government for Madrid includes encourage state languages that are highly regarded. Since Catalonia is a component of The country (and unlike Scotland it's NEVER recently been independent), it will be natural so it also use the country's lingua franca, in this case simply being Castilian. Every united states in The european countries has a minimum of 4 or 5 various other languages. As well as to interact with persons from outside a region, a language is critical.Catalonia's language may be politicized to the point which will others of which share identical language (Valencia drifts into their heads) have been put out. Language can be described as tool just for communication that is certainly it. Catalonia's political figures have geared this to cause divisions in addition to foster acrimony. What's helpful in that these kinds of nationalist want to be registered at the sides to Brussels (because of the pounds), but despise Madrid. Really bad these political figures don't method these systems to having a better usa. Any fool can certainly divide; it's going to take skill not to mention intellect to actually build a thing lasting, components that not any nationalist ever carries.BTW, contrary to Rwanda or Ireland in the 1919 (Easter time rising), Catalonians may not be being oppressed; it is actually basically constructed. Recommend 6ReportPermalinkreply JohnCobra in reply to romulo Nov 29th 2012 2:59 GMT Romulo, not only To be sure with you however i couln't have said hello better. A person's logical and also factual bickering are in plain contrast together with the irrational rants regarding both MJB and localdjv.While The world is spending so much time at curing its factors, catalonia is being enticed by the totalitarian try out proposed by just its corrupt "elite" and will spend the money for ultimate price tag, it will become a backwater of the Iberian peninsula. Recommend 8ReportPermalinkreply JohnCobra in reply to Logicaldjv Nov 29th 2012 Several:01 GMT poor uninformed. you should educate yourself more desirable before publishing idiotic rants. Recommend 3ReportPermalinkreply JMEsteve in reply to romulo Nov 29th Next year 9:20 GMT I agree with logicaldjv: who are you planning to convince? Your current last sentences fully describes spain's situation, not the catalan single. Recommend 0ReportPermalinkreply Logicaldjv Nov 28th 2012 18:75 GMT I am concerned your assessment is one way or another simplistic. In general of the elections will be consolidation regarding pro flexibility. CIU was never an expert independence party, which is why a number of voters didn't have confidence in them on this and also voted in lieu for ERC. As well many CIU contra - independence voters did not vote for CIU both, which explains the significant increase for C's party. Thus CIU was reached from both parties and now remain with difficult form the latest government that can have to put into practice even more durable measures. Understandably no one else needs to be part of the. The only way on top is for Artur Mas to stay to their guns for a pro mobility process, that should lead to a swift referendum and to go with independence. Since one of the main the things that cause the eceonmic conditions is being a natural part of Spain, this can sort out the 2 main problems simultaneously. Recommend 3ReportPermalinkreply eurofederal Nov 28th 2012 17:29 GMT do the people with Catalonia know that if he or she choose health they will inevitably have to take out from the EU? spain may be a member NOT Catalonia... this applies to assist you to Scotland as well. Then that new talk about would have to negociate an innovative membership ( that needs your attention unanimity of the some others), likely to be dissmissed off by Southern spain ! Then they should also have to renegociate his or her's euro being a member and all all the treaties Spain has fixed in its label... Sure folks of Catalonia should think twice....merely because have not a great deal top offer on an finance level. Recommend 1ReportPermalinkreply Garaboncias in reply to eurofederal Nov 28th Next year 21:Twenty GMT " Sure the people of Catalonia will think..."It assumes of which Catalonia is both equally able not to mention willing to want to begin with... Recommend 1ReportPermalinkreply Garaboncias in reply to Garaboncias Nov 29th 2012 Five:47 GMT Clarification into the post higher than." Without a doubt the people involved with Catalonia will think..."That is nice for which you give credit to people of Catalonia so that you can think... Recommend 0ReportPermalinkreply Simon Harris Nov 28th 2012 17:21 GMT I havenrrrt heard of you however , I'm not sure if thez sentence 'They don't like ERC' is consistent with measured honest journalism! Recommend 2ReportPermalinkreply Jord Beceene Nov 28th 2012 14:28 GMT Yes, Spain is mostly a United Kingdom (your Union with kingdoms) because as title of empire itself since Spain were until recent years. Thats the rationale of its made up coat regarding arms with the center. And it is own the flag is some type new: 1793 (yr up, year or so down). England is the identity that had the particular peninsula on Roman Empire times, because also takes place with Brittain. Impact with Brittains is this in Spain, any "main" nation (Castille) declines the existence of the mediocre ones (like whenever in Fantastic Brittain, English would definitely deny in which scotts and others will be nation). That happens in People from france (brittains, occitans, catalans..), but so there the roman name was shed too. Everything that "romantic" points of view would most likely become crappy if the existing spanish claim would be neutral, but out of your catalan point of view, your castillian spanish talk about is deeply inequitable when makes a decision the economic extramarital relationships and frontally averse to catalan culture on every occasion that has the method. The evolution of legal to learn and use of the catalan words in the last yrs in the places out of catalonia tend to be backing for the bad situations if ever could leave these. As case, in the aragon strip where catalan will be spoken (90% involving population makes use of it; has been part of catalonia prior to xixth c.) isn't teached, recognized (labeled as "eastern aragonese) nor is undoubtedly cooficial. Situation for balearic islands and / or valencia is also undesirable if provides ever been effective. In Alicante community, own langauge went to be traditionally years ago for getting only a 3% of usage nowadays. Litle communities around still has the own personal language key, but there is no doubt designed to disappear yearly years. Television channels on catalan, since example, have been banned all about recently (large fines in order to TV3 in that area ...). Some of our spanish status fights againts the west, and that is not good.A detail: Duran as i Lleida (UDC) is a catalan through that aragonese remove. Recommend 8ReportPermalinkreply Accrux in reply to Jord Beceene Nov 30th 2012 20:20 GMT "Yes, England is a British (a Union of kingdoms) because as title associated with kingdom again as The country of spain was not just up until recent times."----------------------Don't have the same slip-up many anti-Catalan Learning to speak spanish nationalists do shaming, distorting or perhaps negating Catalonia's heritage (I continue debunking them) or else you be like these folks. Unless you are convinced 500 years gone by is "recent times" involved with I was helpless to understand what anyone meant to declare because of your French writing. Recommend 0ReportPermalinkreply IVKaBCN Nov Twenty eighth 2012 10:27 GMT I 'm a bit frustrated at your basic analysis about how the ballots for and also against self-sufficiency stand: saying that the ballots CiU have lost have gone with the ERC is not a detailed analysis. Without doubt, some of CiU's electorate smart idea to election ERC, however, CiU have, since 11/9/2012 adopted a far more independentist stand, not gratifying, as you proclaim, a low independentist part of the electorate, who may have identified as Ciutadans or PP. People who have stayed utilizing CiU have become additional favorable to help independence,and a few, though no place near the entirety you propose have favourite to election the original (ERC);hence a correct examination would be a clean growth in independentists in addition to a radicalization you will describe. Recommend 7ReportPermalinkreply CharlesErnest in answer IVKaBCN Nov 28th 2012 13:02 GMT I declare that you speak with the latest CIS article before aiming to suggest that votes have gone from CiU to make sure you Ciutadans. Ciutadans is a still left of core party in which vigorously is contrary to catalan independence as well as the right-wing policies from Artur Mas.The growth with the vote for Ciutadans is without a doubt entirely a result of collapse belonging to the socialist vote inside working-class suburbs associated with Barcelona. This mirrors the massive gulf in between the PSC leadership and their voting base. Recommend 10ReportPermalinkreply JMEsteve Nov Twenty eighth 2012 Twelve:08 GMT Catalonia becomes independent provided by Spain. The fact is that unionists have only an address based on sensations, not pieces of information. The proces iniciated with this elections, has been extremly short-term (not even 8 weeks) and it has been full claims to the primary candidate. There is much more moment for the next referendum, as well as allegations is going to turn contrary to the ones which will made them. Because of the other hand the truth will become better to people, and a bigger fraction will see that independency merely matter of bettering our contry with out loosing not one of our elements. My issue is that at the same time spain is definitely heading at the total colapse, and often will drag Catalonia along too. Recommend 6ReportPermalinkreply CharlesErnest in respond to JMEsteve Nov 28th 2012 11:23 GMT An assertive document based on intestine feeling, devoted pride plus nationalistic chauvinisme.The discussion of the unionists is the fact that 77.2% catalans think about themselves to be spanish (CIS research 6 weeks backwards), out of The country means right out of the EU, business tariffs will harm exports to be able to EU affirms, a big adverse imbalance involving social basic safety payments (retirement benefits, unemployment) plus contributions, a massive catalan debt, a present account shortage of more than 5 billion euros, catalan government non-payment associated with social health care providers, an ENORMOUS a better standard of corruption inside both the Convergencia as well as Socialist parties and also a very long etcetera.You might want to advance off some sort of cliff, though the majority of catalans might stick with Spain (which is NOT at risk of collapse; relatively the in contrast).Your wishful not to mention woolly thinking will only bring tragedy to us. Recommend 12ReportPermalinkreply JMEsteve in reply to CharlesErnest Nov 28th 2012 15:54 GMT I think more than junping from your cliff, catalans will need to jump out from the hole thant spain is excavating to hide itserf.I must remmeber you that ALL thesurveys failded, which means that better tune in to the real polling. Whatever you say about leaving EU must be addressed. What is European? Will catalunya abandon shengen? NO, there is no need for it, along with Spain simply cannot veto it neither. When you state that spain just isn't heading for downfall, you result in the real results concerning personal debt, unemployment, melancholy? For what i see, you prefer Rajoy's conjectures that do not match with Brussels and / or OECD ones.Last but not least, what i would like is a significantly better world regarding my kids, along with what i check out in 37 years of ended up spanyard, its seems to be me that the best way with respect to Catalunya and for Russian federation too (to which i wish the ideal), is to split-up and turn our own ideas. Recommend 9ReportPermalinkreply psicutrinius in reply to CharlesErnest Nov Twenty eighth 2012 Seventeen-year-old:08 GMT Fairly curious, information on how crystal clear your Spanish "unionists" hold the belief inside the "ENORMOUS level of file corruption error within both Convergencia and the Socialist events and a a long time etc.In and just tiptoe (and even wish into oblivion) the Speaking spanish one -which, furthermore, has already been turned out in most cases, and then guilt decisions have been supported, contrary to much of the cases regarding CiU, or the PSC).Can recall the "hermanísimo" Juan Guerra and his close friends?, and the Generalitat valenciana? together with the PP government on the Ballearic Islands?.Also remember also that, awhile back, when a Catalan collection set up any IPO (Simple spanish: OPA) for Endesa, this rallying cry was initially "antes extranjeros que catalanes" (aliens earlier than Catalans) and -through a financially demanding legal fight, they succeeded and it is presently Italian?The overwhelming variety of Catalans want any relation protocols changed, either through an changed constitution with a federal claim or with secession, but what exactly for sure is usually that, one way or another, they should change. Excellent for both? Fed state, naturally, not secession. The second best? Secession. Not an alternative? keep going as always. And the shift in votes (definitely, seats, that is what is important in Governance terms) right from CiU to Esquerra signifies that the matter is definitely radicalized: CiU is more more prone to federalism, Esquerra is nightmare bent in secession.That is, the remedy is to customize the relation. However this is totally (in the first place) with Spain's field. For it, Spain's parliament, by a most at least two-thirds, have got to amend the Constitution. Via a done, its secession, period. Therefore it is ENTIRELY Found in SPAIN'S HANDS.That i'm quite kept entertained at considering that everybody comes with it clear: If Catalonia secedes, this is a "second Albania" for Catalonia. What's in store with respect to Spain?. This can be a real "woolly thinking", Charles Ernest. Recommend 1ReportPermalinkreply Anjin-San Nov 28th 2012 6:00 GMT I recognized a concurrent between the Iberian Peninsula additionally, the British Isles:England = Republic from Ireland, Catalonia = Scotland, Basque = Wales spun politically violent as Ulster.So maybe Southern spain could grown to be "The United Kingdom with Castille, Catalonia (or Aragon), together with Basque (or Navarra)"? Recommend 1ReportPermalinkreply pedrolx2 in reply to Anjin-San Nov 28th 2012 8:53 GMT 'Spain' witout a doubt is the united kingdom of Castille, Leon, Navarra, and additionally Aragon. It is what exactly is represented on their coat involving arms.People from france has hardly any similarities by using Ireland I'm afraid. It is the oldest nation-state throughout Europe, and constantly had significantly more importance inside Peninsula and the world than Ireland ever do. And wince we are babbling of Unted Kingdoms, This particular language created the initial transcontinental 'Commonwealth' under a crown, millions of years before the Caribbean.. The united kingdom regarding Portugal, Brazilian, and the Algarves.L8rs Recommend 6ReportPermalinkreply pedrolx2 in reply to pedrolx2 Nov 28th 2012 Seven:04 GMT So a certain amount of Iberian heraldry .The Spanish language coat for arms is split in five quarters. The 1st quarter, which often represents 'varonia' (even though i am not sure your house Varonia belongs to the Castillian monarchs) stands out as the coat about arms belonging to the royal home of Castille (any castle), The actual 2nd quarter often is the coat involving arms of your royal residence of Leon (a fabulous Lion). The third 1 fourth represents a coat involving arms of a royal house hold of Aragon (throughout yellow, 4 vertical scarlet stripes). your fourth quarter presents the fur of palms of the noble house of Navarre (in white, that gold colored cross cord). In the escutcheon (that is definitely that facility point) there is a royal abs of the house of Bourbon (the three fleurs environnant les lis in violet)Sorry I can't use heraldic dialect because I find it mundane Recommend 1ReportPermalinkreply pedrolx2 in reply to pedrolx2 Nov 28th 2012 Nine:12 GMT Sorry As i forgot the kingdom of Granada that is certainly represented as flower along the centre-down art for the shield Recommend 3ReportPermalinkreply Josh_US Lux in respond to pedrolx2 Nov 29th 2012 Five:16 GMT I'm too embarrassed that's a viewpoint not too highly shared exterior PORTUGAL's borders. The main NATION-STATE in the modern-day sense (that is certainly, a state having insitutions actually from the people, the country - to paraphrase: with a well representative parliament) are usually - you have got guessed the application - Netherlands, who had become a nation-state from the 17th era. Britain, the and Spain were second in series (in that sequence).Nations may perhaps be older, the method of nation-state was first "created" from the Netherlands within the 17th millennium. Recommend 4ReportPermalinkreply diemm in reply to Josh_US Lux Nov 29th 2012 10:21 GMT Sorry, even so you have a very your own definition of nation-state... I will be outside Portugal's flowerbeds, but I a great deal lean pertaining to Portugal... And even why "you will often have guessed it"? Recommend 2ReportPermalinkreply pedrolx2 in reply to Josh_US Lux Nov 29th 2012 Eighteen:22 GMT Unworthy to a reply. The Netherlands were exactly the first The spanish language colony as it were.Read about the 1383-1385 disaster, Fernão Lopes, etc. so you might get a good glimpse of what precisely 'nation-state' is about, as well as how Portugal earliest created the 'product' despite the fact didn't really 'patent' doing it. Consider it just one more of Portugal's 'gifts' within the Netherlands, amongst many others Recommend 2ReportPermalinkreply Accrux in answer pedrolx2 Nov 30th Next year 3:01 GMT It's not merely a flower, it can be a fruit. We ate single yesterday. These are generally two posts of my service from the newer blog Pomegranate extract. The article and certain of the articles referred to mythology, and so forth ..Accrux Nov 2nd, 13:50Before Persephone— abducted by Hades—left typically the Hades, the underworld through her the new mom Demeter, Zeus and Hermes, Hades supplied her pomegranate seeds in addition to asked her to eat these people, which forced her revisit the underworld for that period on an annual basis.After the Nasrid Empire (Emirate) of Granada (Imarat Gharnatah) coding was now conquered through the Catholic Kings (the of the Reconquista) in addition to incorporated into that Crown of Castile in 1492, this has been symbolized with the addition enté durante point from a quarter for the purpose of Granada ("enté en phase, Argent, a pomegranate extract proper seeded gules, established, sculpted and additionally leafed in two finds vert.") Charles As i of The country of spain as Emperor Charles / king Joseph Bonaparte Juan Carlos 1981-present I follow a pomegranate I've got a feeling Take part in have eating any other super fruit. It's for example eating wizardry rubies...Welcome to Here is POMEGRANATE, the revolutionary The Economist Heart East site! Recommended 7 Report Permalink reply-----------------------Accrux in respond to Accrux Nov 2nd, 14:51Not exclusively monarchies. The Second Romance language Republic, 1931-39. Typically the pomegranate can be present. By the way, does any person know of a different country accompanied by a pomegranate in the coats involved with arms? I would like to know it. Recommended 3 share Report Permalink reply Recommend 1ReportPermalinkreply Accrux in respond to pedrolx2 Nov 30th 2012 3:10 GMT Sorry, all the backlinks don't work presently. Here, experimented with reply to your current Cabaret-Money post many, but when I really clicked 'post' there would be a 'loading' after which you can a warning with my technique. TE's website were having a number of technical conditions ("Sorry, we are...In .). By the way, I would not like the completely new font in addition to size, this non-highlighted hyperlinks, and many more. What do you think regarding this? Recommend 0ReportPermalinkreply Accrux in reply to pedrolx2 Nov 30th 2012 4:51 GMT "The the uk of Spain, Brazil, as well as Algarves."That has always been without doubt one of my favourite nicknames for a land. Others:British of The uk and IrelandProvincias Unidas delete Río de la Plata República Oriental del Uruguay Regno delle Due Sicilie (Kingdom of the Two Sicilies)Confederatio Helvetica Recommend 0ReportPermalinkreply Josh_US Lux in answer pedrolx2 Nov 30th Next year 7:20 GMT . Recommend 0ReportPermalinkreply Josh_US Lux in reply to pedrolx2 Nov 30th 2012 Six:32 GMT Hello there, small person, but the Holland (= modern day Netherlands, the actual northern part of BeNeLux) were do not ever a "Spanish colony", neither of the 2 even in possessing the Hapsburgs. Massive swaths of the present Belgium (Equals southern areas BeNeLux) was once a Hapsburg fief. Small, but yet important be aware: The Hapsburgs, that foremost German-Austrian and in fact European commendable family, actually owned Spain, and not Spain Hapsburg places. As Hapsburg fief, those people territories in the current Belgium kept part of the Holy Roman Empire, and even were by no means part of Portugal.If anything, Russian federation was a "Hapsburg colony", to apply your awkward expressions. Charles V came to be in Ghent (the latest Belgium), and additionally Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire previous to he ended up being anything else. (On Belgium, he is referred to as "le motorola roi allemand", by the way.)Besides that: "nation" and "nation-state" really are two completely different concepts To and it's informative consensus that your first nation-state had been the Netherlands, implemented a generation later by The united kingdomt, followed a further century afterwards by the People and This particular language. But since an individual specialize in other reality, I'll go ahead and leave it in that. Recommend 3ReportPermalinkreply Radio Paraiso Nov 28th 2012 5:41 GMT In my opinion, it is essential is to recognise that Catalan culture has a range of views. Catalonia is simply too complex for being viewed as a homogeneous entity and also my important critique to help you Catalan nationalists is that will be systematically endeavoring to project some sort of non-existent Catalonia in which a obvious majority chooses to become free from France. That's not so at all. Like i said in my preceding post, as we consider the varieties of votes (possibly not the seating in Parliament)the particular percentages with support and additionally opposition to help independence happen to be approx. 47% together with 45% approximately. It's hardly a large pro-independence majority.On CIU's electoral program,article 13, they are saying: "a great majority with the Catalonia's citizens seems to have realised quite possibly the main famous actors of a fantastic change, associated with a transition the fact that they undertake while not ambiguities or limitations". For you to clarify, once they say "transition" many refer adaptation to an self-sufficient State.If you happen to consider the rates above, present see that it's not a realistic representation of Catalonia. And this is what they want Catalonia that should be.So, I will not go for reasoning against or perhaps independence. My very own argument is known as a much more simple a person. I just want to speak about that Catalonia is certainly diverse and heterogeneous and that the rest is simply noise, manipulation and unrealistic. Recommend 4ReportPermalinkreply KeepCalmPlease in reply to Car radio Paraiso Nov 28th Next year 16:Thirty-nine GMT I'm afraid this information is not really exact.The fact is that, there were A pair of.140.317 ballots for pro-referendum people (61,6%) along with 1.334.149 votes for anti-referendum events (38,4%), which includes parties they can didn't achieve seats with the Catalan Parliament, as PxC (anti-independence along with Spanish fascist occasion in Catalonia) or perhaps UPyD (pro-Spain unity bash).In the netx link there are some helpfull information about final results of the Catalan elections: Recommend 2ReportPermalinkreply Radio Paraiso in respond to KeepCalmPlease Nov 29th 2012 3:40 GMT Your percentages refer to ballots for pro player and to prevent referendum parties. Our percentages mention votes regarding pro and against self-reliance parties. As you might know its not all the pro-referendum events are pro-independence (PSC and also ICV).In the percentages that I cave in my write-up, I within the big presumption that ALL CiU voters could vote for self-reliance.I'm not meant for independence but I haven't got any risk in realising that a lot of Catalans look to be in favor of the idea. I think of which pro-independence people need as well as to accept the possibility that they are not all the clear greater number that CIU imagined they were. The fact is that the percentages are very very much the same. Recommend 1ReportPermalinkreply JohnCobra Nov 28th 2012 2:Thirty eight GMT The Spanish governing should not discuss anything considering the catalan separatist mafia. If anything too much power has already been given to the region at the cost of national cohesion. The more credits are given to the secessionists the more they're going to keep expecting. The catalan secessionist movent is racial and totalitarian by nature. It has very little respect with regard to individual the legal (of catalans along with non catalans at the same time) nor just for rule involved with law (doing it routinely violates any legislation and also court judgements). Such ideology cannot be acomodated, it has to be defeated in the interest of civilization.Any time catalonia does secede, it will eventually become a totalitarian terrorist state currently pursuing enlargement plans thru aggression (particularly to border Spanish territories ofValencia, Aragon, and Balearics). In addition, an independent catalonia is going to export a lot of refugees seeking to get off ethnic washing, famine in addition to oppression by the catalan mafia. As a result, Spain wants to stand firm in conserving the procedure of law and shield the population. Recommend 11ReportPermalinkreply guest-iojmmoo in respond to JohnCobra Nov 28th Next year 4:Fifty one GMT hahahahaha. Recommend 7ReportPermalinkreply guest-iojmmoo in reply to JohnCobra Nov 28th 2012 Have a look at:51 GMT hahahahaha. Recommend 5ReportPermalinkreply JMEsteve in respond to JohnCobra Nov 28th 2012 9:Teen GMT Don' forget that him and i catalans have some markers of majority destruction also. In fact it is actually for sure which catalans killed Dinosaur too.That catalan government possesses a plan to enhance jobs: establishing scaffolds and gallows. Unique rope producers are also wise; now really do not have enough string to hang these. Recommend 7ReportPermalinkreply Raga Losa in reply to JohnCobra Nov Twenty eighth 2012 Eight:03 GMT ????? Recommend 1ReportPermalinkreply Raga Losa in respond to JohnCobra Nov 28th 2012 10:Thirteen GMT ????? Recommend 1ReportPermalinkreply psicutrinius in reply to JohnCobra Nov 28th 2012 16:16 GMT John Cobra pertaining to president. Will have to substitute Rajoy -and initiate immediate courts-martial with the corrupt Catalans found in politics -and permit presidential pardon into the Spanish "camorra" from corruption (empathetic, wanted to declare mafia, but it is by now taken up by just JC for the Catalans).Also, it is grand time for you to come to life, John Recommend 1ReportPermalinkreply JohnCobra in reply to JMEsteve Nov 29th 2012 3:51 GMT Hahaha, you may use sarcasm but you are only being disingenous by way of negating all of the totalitarian racist mother nature of catalan nationalism. It invents fake grievances from an imaginary and impure ennemy to promote adulterous interests of any small virus ridden elite (of course, we can call them the catalan and also barcelona mafia, such as: cIu, esquerra, etc) and then the expense of the typical people. This is exactly why the catalan "elite" pay out so much options at indoctrinating individuals like you and dispersion falsehoods everywhere you look. But the on her that catalonia is bankrupt prior to they even imagine independence. Recommend 1ReportPermalinkreply Accrux Nov 27th 2012 20:Thirty-nine GMT There are very several opinions on this subject thread. BoStanford composed:"...a good deal Spanish central system is especially unfair and also mistreated Catalonia."While romulo gave them:"The spanish gps is just about the smallest amount centralized within Europe..."&h.This is various historical data, because if you don't understand a state's past (without any so past) you can't appreciate its present. Jorge Agustín Nicolás Ruiz de Santayana y Borrás, known as George Santayana, was born in The town in 1863 though (I premium), "...this individual was raised together with educated across the nation and determined himself for an American, eventhough he always kept a sound Spanish passport. Your dog wrote within English and its generally perceived as an American boyfriend of characters."His phrase ""Those who seem to cannot keep in mind past really are condemned to repeat it" may be known. -----------------Spain's six Country's Roads: which 'it's almost like any clockwise Swastika.This was this dream of countless Castilian-Spanish nationalist centralists and still is made for some. A specific country, a unified expressions, an absolute center (Madrid, the capital city, quite in close proximity to Spain's geographical switch). andel Sol, Madrid)It's supposed to be all the geographical hub of the Iberian peninsula, idea of oneness was epitomized while in the motto belonging to the coat of arms with Franco's Spanish State for many decades: (One)GRANDE (Good)LIBRE (Free...) People from france finally sonata recall from England in 1640-68, so it is ignored into the spotlight, like France. Spain is like an archipelago, with a large island and various other smaller ones.Many Catalans as well as other peripheral folks of the Iberian peninsula didn't like this. No wonder! Ah, all through the Spanish Municipal War a product happened: Recommend 6ReportPermalinkreply pedrolx2 in reply to Accrux Nov 27th Next year 21:1949 GMT Just one minimal correction, Portugal's recently been an independent land (de facto) because 1143, and if a single thing, its freedom was with Leon.. The Habsburg control lasted 59 years and was initially sold to the portuguese of times that it might surmount to two nation's under the comparable crown that was obviously incorrect.. You are best that the Colonial after 1640 ended considering his or her self Spanish, given that the Spanish top appropriated the brand name. If you study Camões for instance the person speaks of typically the nações hispânicas ... I wish additional pratical matters increasingly being discussed... All things considered that is what it may surmount to ...which will money is a member of whom and so forth .. It is the means of things .... This is significant accrux... Recommend 2ReportPermalinkreply pedrolx2 in reply to Accrux Nov 27th Next year 21:59 GMT In the end Iberia should certainly converge to a new federation of suggests, as simple as in which. With a united states government in a government district in a handful of strange location in the middle of nowhere. Recommend 4ReportPermalinkreply Accrux in reply to pedrolx2 Nov 27th 2012 22:Twenty-seven GMT Come on pedrolx, I had read many histories of Portugal, lots of money . was William C. Atkinson's 'A Excellent Spain and even Portugal', published throughout 1960...I do know all that, however i wrote "Portugal last of all separated with Spain within 1640-68", which after a 1580-1640 period isn't a wrong approval, or is it all? You should have developed "addition", not "correction". I just read Camoens (translated within English by simply Atkinson, by the way) and i know their famous referenve within the Hispanic nations.Enjoy... and I wish, i.orite. we wish. Still life is but not just money, hi pedrinho, it's not only funds... Recommend 3ReportPermalinkreply Accrux in reply to pedrolx2 Nov 27th Next year 22:Thirty seven GMT I have made a number of 'proposals' (some of them really detailed) about this, you were included in one of those talks, don't you remember? The problem is... a growing number of Catalans and Basques aim for their own condition AND THEN, understandably, join the actual confederation. By the way, please don't confuse federation using confederation, federal together with confederal... I prefer your Confederatio Hispanica or Iberica. Recommend 5ReportPermalinkreply pedrolx2 in respond to Accrux Nov 27th 2012 12:30 GMT Sorry that you are right, it had been an accessory. I am let's face it a patriot. ;As) and as you realize Hisotrians agree which restoration could only have happened on one side in the Peninsula, so as you are losing a battle, People from france won their own... at the tariff of quite a lot of things... So consequently the mixed feelings concerning Catalonian independence. It is my opinion in most recent times the Portuguese have consistently felt since Spain had become a extremely modern together with free state, and I thikn the general feeling at this point was that the active 'Autonomias' model proved helpful somehow. Exactly what transpires now's that it isn't going to. My stage though is always that at this point in time, it all relies on tit for tat.I feared that the emergency in Spain may lead to stronger independentist motion, but probably I was simply just being a pessimist as well as it not that a big deal... Albeit, We are pretty sure all of the emotional aspect of a most likely Catalan independence beats or shadows the more pragmatic side of any 'Catalexit' which will surmount to many strange instances such as the varieties described by all of us. I was as well recently within Croatia, which resemble a Portuguese above I expected. Somebody was saying about their own unique plight for being independent. Yes, it is completely completely different. But the exclusively compromise throughout their case was initially adding to every passport to which fraction they find yourself. Serbian being the most obvious but los angeles cpa minorities. From the Iberian case, I am not sure how that translates. An amusing story -- once in Bilbao I'm leaving my best hotel room and so i took the lift all the way down and there used to be people throughout, the carry stopped in the next floor decrease and some some people came in -and pointed out 'Bom dia' (or precisely what it sounded love Bom dia). I thought these were Portuguese. This turned out that they were Catalan. So certainly, there, a Colonial, several Catalans, with the Basque country )inside a Spanish accommodation) . Recommend 2ReportPermalinkreply Accrux in answer pedrolx2 Nov 27th 2012 7:34 GMT If budgets are so important I personally bet you this,;-) Recommend 3ReportPermalinkreply Accrux in reply to pedrolx2 Nov 28th 2012 0:15 GMT Don't worry, I realize your kind of reaction, but I was forced to react to your main reaction and we would have an excellent chain reaction... ;To)", despite the fact that you were burning off your campaign, Portugal gained theirs..."I plead with your pardon? "You"? Have As i ever testified that I am a Catalan or possibly have I just ever developed "we" or "us" making reference to Catalonia and Catalans? Pedrolx, I am not saying Catalan, I am not associated with Catalan descent, I cannot live in Catalonia, I don't have Catalan relatives. I don't still speak Catalan fluently, but I can see it together with understand it exceptionally well thanks to the undeniable fact that I discuss fluently about three other Appeal languages we have witnessed Catalan films together with TV and so i have read books and newpapers inside Catalan. It's a foreign language I like. I have already been to Catalonia many and I ought to say that I personally liked the state and the people. Most people I understand who have been to assist you to Catalonia and reached people there liked the united states and its men and women as well, checking out an anti-Catalan propaganda together with a number of pessimistic myths plus stereotypes about Catalonia I've found utterly gross. I have studied Catalonia's history and I have and still have certain Catalan friends (who, out of courtesy to me, constantly refused to communicate in Catalan among them pictures was latest, in spite of a insistence, so how on this planet do you learn a language?) All others is loyalty, sympathy, concern and a a sense justice, that is certainly all. Recommend 5ReportPermalinkreply pedrolx2 in reply to Accrux Nov 28th 2012 10:47 GMT Impressive. I am speechless. Seemed you were Catalan. Recommend 0ReportPermalinkreply Accrux in reply to pedrolx2 Nov 28th Next year 16:Nineteen GMT "Speechless"? = Can occur, don't exaggerate! Well, if you are not "fingerless"... I would personally really miss a person, you know. A person noticed that I very rarely reply to people —including most people, Garaboncias and many others—and have a nice debate or an argument together simply because they criticize Catalonia or perhaps pro-independence Catalans on rigorously economic, sociable or political good grounds. Even on the subject of historical argument, if they undertake it in a really serious way. But not just because We respect their very own stances and feedback, which occasionally I possibly share, and yet because my own knowledge of economic climate and sociology has limitations. What I can't stand is generally not aware or partial people who try and belittle, overlook or even negate Catalonia's history from anti-Catalanism or having political needs. I studied history and I usually debunk these individuals.You may have realized as well that I always mention Catalonia and Catalans (also to any other place) in the 3rd person, they will, them, their own, theirs, and so i don't communicate on their behalf or simply try to make up them (precisely how could As i?), I just show MY personal viewpoints and, as always, when I practice it I primarily represent professionally and articulate on my own behalf. No nation, group and / or religion ought to pay for the things i say, I'm certainly the sole in charge. Phew! Recommend 1ReportPermalinkreply Octavianus71 in reply to pedrolx2 Nov Twenty eighth 2012 Twenty-two:25 GMT Let people say that both of you are right. What happened is the fact that king Philip II unified the entire peninsula. So for a bit of decades, The nation, Portugal and the only thing oversees territories where dictated from Madrid. That notable the highest territorial business expansion of the Real spanish Empire.I have never copied almost any link, however it is easy to check up on wiki and any reputation for Spain booklet. However, that has the past.Many thanks reading. Recommend 0ReportPermalinkreply pedrolx2 in answer Accrux Nov 29th 2012 Twenty:42 GMT Life's some cabaret! Unfortunately your own got to cash??We live in interesting instances. We've a short time ago witnessed the actual creation of categories, lobbies, movements any, who've was given an incredibly brutal stance contrary to the welfare assert for causes I do not definitely wish to discussion. I regards hope they just do not succeed. You can ask ourselves just where does all the Catalonian independence circulation stand in doing this. I think who Spain has always been many 'Spains'. The prevailing one, on this government, can be a centralist, elitist, ultrareligious, competing one. Today's Catalonia is the the complete opposite of that. No wonder that they want to give up. Recommend 0ReportPermalinkreply sanmartinian Nov 27th 2012 20:57 GMT Spanish politicsA problem on the path to just what seems that promised landSure? Recommend 1ReportPermalinkreply Afrikaner211 Nov 27th Next year 19:57 GMT Today, we've found new but yet no go on corruption scandal when it comes to Catalonia,this time utilizing leading socialist personas involved in ilegal fee system from the city of Sabadell.¡Freedon with respect to Spain !¡Spain is just not Catalonia !¡Let´s get rid of catalonian mafia ! Recommend 6ReportPermalinkreply DancingEgg in answer Afrikaner211 Nov 28th 2012 10:40 GMT Is very dubious that you neglected to explain which often politicians accused of corruption with Sabadell are people in PSC, a spanish unionist party.To ensure you are appropriate, Spain is absolutely not Catalonia. Recommend 5ReportPermalinkreply Afrikaner211 Nov 27th 2012 Sixteen:50 GMT The developing number of Spaniards will be sick and tired of Mr Mad Mas, hiscorrupt event CIU and separatist aims.More and more Spaniards may welcome warmly the Catalan independenceto remove this mafia invariably asking for a higher price.Catalonia today can be bankrupt and even bailed-out wth funds transferredfrom all of the central fed government in The city.Mr Flabergasted Mas, Mr Pujol impressive family may fight to get independent Catalonia to not have the prosecution and imprisonment for money and taxation evasion to Europe and Liechtenstein.Catalonia represents today within the Champion´s League about political problem. Recommend 8ReportPermalinkreply Felix the Cat 1714 in answer Afrikaner211 Nov 27th 2012 17:58 GMT The way in which weird. The growing number of Catalans is weary of Spain, of people 300 many years of oppresion, of insults in addition to being feared for speaking a different vocabulary and staying taxed for you to death simultaneously. Recommend 8ReportPermalinkreply Afrikaner211 in reply to Felix the actual 1714 Nov 27th 2012 Something like 20:01 GMT You are kindly invited for you to declare any independence of Cataloniaas of the next day.The tremendous majority of Spaniards should celebrate.Obviously, don´t count on Learning to speak spanish money to make sure you bail-outyour corrupt governmental mafia.Godd luck plus good trip. Recommend 9ReportPermalinkreply guest-iojmmoo in reply to Afrikaner211 Nov 28th 2012 A number of:54 GMT hahaha. genuinely? Recommend 1ReportPermalinkreply JMEsteve in reply to Afrikaner211 Nov 28th 2012 In search of:24 GMT Wich dough? The one that we tend to pay on taxes and provide to borrow to spain subsequently with bigger interest as compared with spanish ties? Who is doing the big come to terms? Recommend 1ReportPermalinkreply JMEsteve in reply to Afrikaner211 Nov Twenty eighth 2012 Seven:24 GMT Wich cash? The one that you pay with taxes and have absolutely to borrow towards spain soon after with greater interest as compared with spanish draws together? Who is helping to make the big deal? Recommend 0ReportPermalinkreply psicutrinius in reply to Afrikaner211 Nov 28th 2012 20:19 GMT Very well, that's So. Spain does not have any say around Mas -they don't have a new vote at that Recommend 0ReportPermalinkreply pedrolx2 Nov 27th 2012 18:39 GMT To Romulo,Why don't we continue the talk here as I just thoroughly despise the economist's answer system...When any referenda ended up being to triumph, your major problem would be that just one precisely : I mean that nationality choice had to be given towards Catalonian citizens for the reason that some probably won't want to remove their Romance language citizenship . Unlike in Croatia/Serbia or even czechia/Slovakia where ethnic culture is captured quite a lot way more seriously, within Iberia we are all simply big variation, and in the finish it will merely about how you think, whether Catalonian , or perhaps Spanish ... Nonetheless at the end of the day I have no real developed opinion on the subject of Catalonian independence merely because I believe many people should be what they aspire to to be finally there are a wide range of pragmatic issues that are missing the talk, here and additionally everywhere Recommend 2ReportPermalinkreply romulo in respond to pedrolx2 Nov 28th 2012 10:Double zero GMT The latest study conducted by its CIS in Catalonia Five to six weeks ago revealed that only 25.8% consider his or her self 'Only catalan'. The rest look at themselves roughly spanish likewise.But also within this Twenty two.8

View complete fotopage

© Pidgin Technologies Ltd. 2016